#batfam death project intro

[avayarising]

The Batfam Death Project Introduction

I’m working on a project to find and list every time each member of the Batfam has experienced death, either through dying or by visiting a world of the dead.

Why?

I was curious because I kept finding incidences of DC heroes dying and coming back to life, and the Batfam in particular (though maybe that’s just because that’s where I started looking), and I wanted to know how much there was of this. Jason’s death is the one everyone makes a fuss of, but there are plenty of others and I wanted to know just how many.

And, coming at it partially from the DPxDC side, I wanted to know exactly how liminal the Bats are.

And the answer is: very.

Scope

For this project I’m looking at all deaths of the core Batfamily: that’s Bruce, Dick, Jason, Tim, Cass, Damian, and Alfred; I’m also including Steph, Barbara, Duke, and Kate. I’m not including more peripheral, associate or occasional bat-vigilantes such as Jean-Paul or Helena, nor other members of the Justice League, though I am aware of at least some deaths for many of them. (I could perhaps be persuaded to expand the project…)

The scope includes only the main universe (Prime Earth, New Earth, or Earth-0). It covers all eras from pre-Crisis to the present day, within the main timeline. It does not include elseworlds, imaginary stories, or alternative universes. For example, it does not include deaths and undeaths in DCeased, DC versus Vampires, or Injustice. It considers only comics, not movies, TV shows, radio plays, or other media. My goal is that it should at least be arguable, for any given character, that the same person has experienced all their death events in succession.

Definition of death experience

A character is considered dead if they are depicted or declared dead on panel (and this is not contradicted). They are also considered dead if they have no heartbeat, have no cerebral activity, or require CPR.

The death doesn’t have to be long to be included �� brief flatlining counts. I’m including a note of the rough length of time the character is dead for each incident, at least in terms of order of magnitude (minutes, hours, days…).

I’m also including instances where a character is healed in a Lazarus Pit while dying or mortally wounded – in other words, where they would have died very shortly without the intervention of the Pit.

I debated whether or not to include instances of what the comics call ‘brain death’, where there is no cerebral activity, even if autonomous functions continue. In real life, my understanding is that a declaration of death for lack of brain activity requires brainstem death, where even autonomous functions are lost. But I decided in the end to include them, because in both cases where this occurs (both to Bruce) they are referred to on-panel as ‘clinical death’.

In addition to the above, I’m also separately keeping track of any visits to any afterlife or realm of the dead where the character doesn’t have to die to go there (summoning, portal, etc.).

Preliminary results

Bruce dies early and dies often. So far I have several dozen deaths for Bruce, in seventeen separate incidents.

His kids have a more reasonable 2–5 deaths each.

Duke is the only member of the Batfam (core or adjunct) whom I haven’t found any verifiable deaths for. Yet.

Deaths have been getting more frequent over the years, and they’re all getting pretty blasé about it.

Next steps

I’m going to write a post for each character listing and summarising their deaths, with volume and issue references. I’ll then dive into more detail in individual posts for some of the more interesting (to me) deaths and revivals. I’ll create a masterpost so you can keep track of them, and link it here.

Please send me asks!

Acknowledgements

Huge thanks are due to @lynzine and @zahri-melitor for helping and encouraging me with this project, letting me rant at them about this project and the comics I’ve read for it, and finding and suggesting deaths and potential deaths for me to look at. Without your encouragement I would have given up long ago.

The Batfam Death Project Masterpost

[frogaroundandfindout]

I'd love to see a list of what you've read so far! I'm personally working my way through the entirety of NML, and that itself feels like an unending project, so I can only imagine how hard your reading list is.

* Robin: Year One

* Robin: Year One #1-4

* The New Teen Titans Vol. 1 (1980-1984)

* The New Teen Titans #1-20

* Tales of the New Teen Titans #1-4

* The New Teen Titans #21-25

* The New Teen Titans: Annual 1 (concludes Starfire’s origin)

* The New Teen Titans #26-34

* The New Teen Titans: Annual 2 (concludes Vigilante origin storyarc)

* The New Teen Titans #36-37

* Batman and Outsiders #5 (Part two of NTT #37 )

* The New Teen Titans #38-39

* Batman #368-(Dick gives Robin suit to Jason after announcing that he’s stepping back from Robin in NTT #39)

* Detective Comics #535-(Part two of Batman #368 )

* The New Teen Titans #40-/

* Tales of the Teen Titans (1984-1988)

* Tales of the Teen Titans #41-44 (brother blood in NT 40 and TOTTT 41; Judas contract in #42-44)

* Tales of Teen Titans: Annual 3 (end of Judas contract)

* Tales of the Teen Titans #45-74

* Omega Men #34-/

* Tales of the Teen Titans #75-83

* Titans Spotlight #1-2

* Tales of the Teen Titans #84-91

* Note: ignored annual 4: enter vanguard (boring as fuck)

* New Teen Titans Vol. 2 (1984-1996)

* New Teen Titans #32-35

* Teen Titans Spotlight #3 (Starfire in South Africa)

* New Teen Titans #36-39

* New Teen Titans Annual #3 (Godiva; Danny chase intro)

* New Teen Titans Annual #4 (private lives; Danny chase on team)

* New Teen Titans #40-/

* New Teen Titans Annual #2 (origin of Brother Blood)

* New Teen Titans #41-49

- Teen Titans Spotlight #3-6 (Joe Wilson)

* New Titans (1988-1996)

* Batman (1940) #416-(Dick meets Jason for the first time post-crisis and gives him Robin + his phone number. Brotherly bonding via drug bust and dick argues with Bruce about finding out about Jason via newspaper and taking on a new Robin)

* Teen Titans Spotlight #14 (dick is called to the manor by Alfred to help find Batman when he doesn’t show up for a meeting. Dick saves him from being killed by the highest bidder and says he’s proud to have been Robin)

* New Titans #50-56

* Secret Origins (1986): Annual #3 (dick is trapped in his own head, going through past events and his own failures)

* New Titans #57-59 (#57 has dick deciding to go confront Bruce at the manor but he is not there as told in Batman #436. Dick walks around manor and sees every sign of Jason is gone then goes to look for Bruce as Nightwing and is walked away from after asking Batman what’s wrong with him in #437. Nightwing looks for Bruce again at Wayne manor in #437 and New Titans #58 but Batman’s gone/ avoiding dick. Dick goes looking again in #438)

* Batman #436-439 (Batman Year Three; Flashbacks with a retelling of Dick's origin during Bruce's third year as Batman. In the "now", Dick tries to reach out to Bruce after Jason’s death while Dick's parents' murderer is about to be set free)

* Batman #440-442 and New Titans #69-61 ( A Lonely Place of Dying; Tim enters batfam)

* New Titans #62-70

* New Titans #71-79 (Titans Hunt [#71-84] Wildebeest arc with villian’s identity reveal as Joey and Deathstroke + Steve Dayton + arella team up)

* New Titans Annual #7 (team titans go back in time to stop chaos)

* New Titans #80-81

* War of the Gods #4

* New titans #82-89

* Death Stroke the Terminator #14 ( Total Chaos; dick hunts down slade and starfire frees herself from mirages capture)

* New Titans #90 (total chaos pt 2)

* Team Titans #1, 1a, 1b, 1c, 1e (total chaos pts 3)

* Deathstroke the Terminator #15 (total chaos pt 4)

* New Titans #91 (total chaos pt 5)

* Team Titans #2 (total chaos pt 6)

* Deathstroke the Terminator #16 (total chaos pt 7)

* New Titans #92 (total chaos pt 8)

* Team titans #3 (total chaos pt 9)

* Titans Sell Out Special (pt 1)

* Deathstroke the Terminator #17 ( titans sell out pt 2)

* New Titans #93 (titans sell out pt 3)

* Team Titans #4-6

* New Titans #94-114

* Showcase ‘94 #11

* Damage #6

* New Titans #115-119

* New titans #119-130

* Prodigal (1994-1995)

* Summary: dick grayson takes over as Batman and works with Tim as his Robin

* Batman #512

* Shadow of the Bat #32

* Detective Comics #679

* Robin Vol. 4 #11

* Batman #513

* Shadow of the Bat #33

* Detective Comics #680

* Robin Vol. 4 #12

* Batman #514

* Shadow of the Bat #34

* Detective Comics #681

* Robin Vol. 4 #13

* Batman #515

* Alfred’s Return (1995)

* Alfred’s return #1

* Nightwing Vol. 1 (1995)

* Nightwing #1-4 (dick grayson gives up Nightwing to find what he wants in life and is then confronted with new evidence about Kravia’s potential part in his parents deaths. Nightwing investigates and develops new peace regarding his childhood and relationship with Batman)

* Like Riding a Bike (1996)

* Batman Chronicles #7

* Nightwing Vol. 2 (1996)

* Nightwing #1-18

* Nightwing Annual 1 (Dick gets married to supposed husband killer)

* Nightwing and Huntress #1-4 (Devin Grayson=weird shit)

* Nightwing #0.5 (Nightwing protects “lunchmeat” deever)

* Cataclysm (Earthquake in Gotham)

* Detective Comics #719 -- Prelude: Sound and Fury

* Batman: Shadow of the Bat #73 -- Part 1: Castles Built on Sand

* Nightwing (Volume 2) #19 -- Part 2: Shudder

* Batman #553 -- Part 3: Lifelines

* Azrael #40 -- Part 4: Hour of the Quake

* Detective Comics #720 -- Part 5: The First and the Last

* Catwoman (Volume 2) #56 -- Part 6: Claustrophobia

* Robin (Volume 2) #52 -- Part 7: Tribunal

* Batman: Blackgate - Isle of Men #1 -- Part 8: Isle of Men

* Batman: Shadow of the Bat #74 -- Part 9: The Naked City

* Batman Chronicles #12 -- Part 10: The Contract • House of Cards • Trapped • A Bird With a Hand • Love Me 2 Times • Little Orphan Andy

* Nightwing (Volume 2) #20 -- Part 11: The Day After Judgment

* Batman #554 -- Part 12: Master of Destruction

* Batman: Huntress & Spoiler #1 -- Part 13: Blunt Trauma

* Detective Comics #721 -- Part 14: Shifting Ground

* Catwoman (Volume 2) #57 -- Part 15: Reap What You Sow

* Batman: Arkham Asylum - Tales of Madness #1 -- Part 16: Tales of Madness

* Robin (Volume 2) #53 -- Conclusion: Flattened

* Aftershocks (after earthquake in Gotham)

* Batman: Shadow of the Bat #75 -- By Fire... or By Ice? • A Long Slow Death

* Batman #555 -- Trapped like Rats

* Detective Comics #722 -- Statistics

* Batman: Shadow of the Bat #76 -- The Gauntlet

* Robin (Volume 2) #54 -- Repercussions

* Batman #556 -- Help, Trapped, Money, Rescue, Ruins

* Batman: Shadow of the Bat #77 -- Arwin's Theory of Devolution

* Batman #557 -- Ballistic's Evidence

* Detective Comics #724 -- The Grieving City

* Batman: Shadow of the Bat #78 -- The Blank Generation Part 1

* Batman: Shadow of the Bat #79 -- The Blank Generation Part 2

* Batman Chronicles #14 -- Master of the House • The Lunatic Fringe • Random Encounters

* Batman #558 -- Dying City

* Batman #559 -- Dead City

* Detective Comics #725 -- At the End of the Day

* Detective Comics #726 -- Fool's Errand

* Nightwing #21-22

* Brotherhood of the Fist

* Green Arrow (Volume 2) #134

* Detective Comics #723

* Robin (Volume 2) #55

* Nightwing (Volume 2) #23

* Green Arrow (Volume 2) #135

* Nightwing #24-25

* Shadow of the bat 1,000,000

* Nightwing #1,000,000

* Detective Comics #1,000,000

* Nightwing #26-34

* Nightwing Secret files #1 (dick’s hallucination of Jason and summarized retcon origin of dick)

* Nightwing #35-37 (Escape to Blackgate; dick takes back blackgate prison for Batman and plans escape with villians)

* Hunt For Oracle

* Nightwing #38-45 (start of the hunt for oracle)

* Birds of prey #20

* Nightwing #46

* Birds of prey #21-24 (end of hunt for Oracle)

* Action Comics #771 (dick follows intergang into metropolis and works with Superman)

* Nightwing #47

* Transference

* Gotham Knights #8-11

* Nightwing #48-50

* Nightwing 80 page giant

* Nightwing #51

* This Issue: Batman Dies!

* Batman #586

* Detective Comics #753

* Batgirl #11

* Birds of Prey #26

* Nightwing (Volume 2) #52

* Robin (Volume 2) #85

* Officer Down

* Batman #587 (Part 1)

* Robin (Volume 2) #86 (Part 2)

* Birds of Prey #27 (Part 3)

* Catwoman (Volume 2) #90 (Part 4)

* Nightwing (Volume 2) #53 (Part 5) (Alfred quits)

* Detective Comics #754 (Part 6)

* Batman: Gotham Knights #13 (Part 7)

* Gotham Knights #14 (dick and Az foil the French acrobat sisters (Double Dare) together while the narration is a letter dick writes to Bruce about their relationship. References to transference.)

* Nightwing 54-59

* Gotham Knights #16-17 and #19-21 (dick is adopted by Bruce who dreams of the ghosts of his and dicks parents. Complications emerge as dicks unknown Romani grandfather contests the adoption)

* Nightwing: Our Worlds at war

* Nightwing: The target

* Nightwing #60-61

* Joker: The Last Laugh

* Joker: Last Laugh Secret Files & Origins #1

* Joker: Last Laugh #1

* Nightwing (1996) #62

* Joker: Last Laugh #2

* Birds of Prey (1998) #36

* Joker: Last Laugh #3-5

* Robin (1993) #95

* Joker: Last Laugh #6

* Robin (1993) #96

* Birds of Prey (1998) #37

* Nightwing (1996) #63

* Nightwing #64

* Bruce Wayne: Murderer?

* Gotham knights #24

* Batman: The 10-Cent Adventure #1(2002)

* Detective Comics #766

* Batgirl #24

* Nightwing Vol. 2 #65

* Batman: Gotham Knights #25

* Birds of Prey #39

* Robin Vol. 4 #98
Robin Vol. 4 #99

* Batman #599

* Detective Comics #767

* Nightwing Vol. 2 #66-67

* Batman: Gotham Knights #26

* Birds of Prey #40

* Bruce Wayne: Fugitive

* Batman #600 (dick and Bruce fight)

* Birds of Prey #41

* Batman: Gotham Knights #27

* Batman #601-602

* Detective Comics #768-769

* Batgirl #27

* Nightwing #68

* Batman: Gotham Knights #28-29

* Detective Comics #770

* Nightwing #69

* Birds of Prey #43

* Batman #603

* Detective Comics #771

* Batgirl #29

* Batman: Gotham Knights #30

* Azrael: Agent of the Bat #91-92

* Detective Comics #772

* Batman: Gotham Knights #31

* Batman #604-605

* Atonement

* Detective Comics #773-775

* Batman #606-607

* Batgirl #33

* Nightwing #70 (Deever is tracked down by hella who tries to kill him as revenge for her dead family. Nightwing stops them.)

END OF DIXON’S RUN

* JLA/ Titans (1998-1999)

* #1-3 (dick and the titans fight the JLA to save Vic stone who is accidentally causing disasters on earth)

* Titans (1999-2003)

* Titans #1 (team re-forms)

* The Titans secret files and origins #1 (original Titans recruit members if their choice + extra stories and file entries by Cyborg)

* Titans #2-9

* The Immortal Coil (slade goes to titans for help with retrieving Addie from Vandal Savage. Addie is killed by gorilla grodd and incinerated by starfire)

* Titans #10-12

* Titans #13-14

* Survival (the titans fight among themselves and go to an island to work out their issues. They are trapped by gargoyles fantasy illusions and must make up with eachother to escape)

* Titans #15-16

* Titans #17-19 (titans head to Vega solar system to aid tamaraneans against gordanian invaders. However, Kory lied to them and it’s the tamaraneans trying to take over the gordanian home planet. Roy + Lian bonding with Grant in Arizona)

* Titans #20 (Vic gets his clone body and Wally leaves titans to make sure dick doesn’t feel obligated to stay. He makes sure jesse comes back)

* Beast Boy Vol.1

* #1-4 (gar is accused of murder and dick goes to investigate. He fights the shapeshifter imitating gar and bails him out of jail but leaves when gar says he can handle it. Tells bette she should quit being a hero and bette changes her costume)

* Titans Annual #1 (Gar is taken over by a demon in Japan and is “killed” to get rid of the demon. He’s okay though. Post bette Kane change)

* Titans Secret files and Orgins #2 (titans surprise dick in bludhaven and find him having dinner with Clancy. Chanda’s visits other people from Quarac about Jade )

* Titans #21-

Bruce

* Batman Confidential (2008) #13-16 (wrath child; A recently debuted Nightwing helps Bruce fight a cop killing Batman impersonator called the Wrath)

* Transference (2000) (Gotham Knights #8-11 Dick comes to Gotham to visit Tim and Bruce but Hugo strange tries to connect Bruce Wayne to Batman. Batman hypnotizes himself to forget he’s bataman and dick brings him back.)

* Gotham Knights #18 (Bruce is lonely with the manor empty and calls Aquaman to come “help him” move the stuck giant penny. Author sees through it and tells Bruce to just ask him to bring over some beers next time.)

* Gotham knights #23 ( Bruce hit with fear toxin. Hears body guard tell him various loved ones are dead or hurt)

Roy

* Action Comics Weekly #613-618 (The Cheshire Contract; Dick helps Roy find his daughter) (1988)

*

Slade

* Deathstroke the Terminator #17-20 (The Nuclear Winter; slade goes undercover to prevent Cheshire from stealing nuclear weapons while wintergreen is in prison)

Jason

* Batman (1940) #357-368 and Detective Comics (1937) #524-535 (Jason’s intro to Batman comics as a flying todd and him becoming Robin)

* Batman (1940) #408-416 (Jason Todd’s appearance as a street kid, Bruce giving him Robin, and dick grayson getting fired after being shot by joker)

* Batman (1940) #426-429 (Jason looks for mother and gets killed by joker)

Dick & Co.

* Secret Origins (1986) #13 (dick is on tamaran and tells his story to Joey after korys wedding)

* The flash plus Nightwing (1997) (dick and Wally go on a vacation that dick planned for them at a murder mystery mansion)

* Then and Now (1997) (dick meets with Roy, Wally and Garth to find Mr. Jupiter. They fight younger versions of themselves and Roy gets a teen titan killed with his mistake )

* Gods of Gotham (2001) (Wonder Woman #164-167; the children of ares take over the bodies of Gotham criminals to shape the city in his image. Dick decapitates a gorgon for Donna, tells her he loves her, calls her sweetheart and helps her get over her fears of dark angel (?), and protects Tim Drake)

[sevenscreamingraccoons]

seeing some new users in my notifs so here’s a quick intro to my blog:

Hi, I’m sevenscreamingraccoons but y’all can call me Seven or Isa in my inbox or dms.

There’s a lot of DC (usually batfam and a shit ton of Tim Drake), Star Wars (Mando culture my beloved, Dinluke is present quite a bit, TCW clone stuff and there’s a large amount of Obi-Wan stuff), Some Marvel (TFATWS is fun for me and Black Widow), New Girl, Our Flag Means Death, 9-1-1 and Criminal Minds.

Always feel free to message me about fun hc’s or anything you feel needs a warning tag! I am working on a tag system but it’s slow in going as I am very lazy.

Tags you might see:

seven talks -personal posts that are usually me rambling

seven does ask memes -any tag game or ask meme i play will have this

fic updates by seven -links or long posts with my latest chapters, though i recommend going to my ao3 for those

seven screams honest thoughts -rant posts, feel free to blacklist this tag if you want, this one is just there to keep track of the nonsense i say

seven answers -tag for answering inbox messages, though i don’t get many

Go ahead and tag me on anything you guys want to and I LOVE IT when others enter me in tag games and picrew threads!

I do post fanfic to my ao3 which is @ Homolaterus and will be linked below!

My fics do have a very irregular update schedule but that’s because i want to give all my readers the best draft i can.

https://archiveofourown.org/users/Homolaterus/pseuds/Homolaterus

[lookatthisdork]

First Impressions: Harper Row

Pursuant of my long-term goal to write more about my AU-meta Where are the grandkids?, I decided to track down and read some of the New 52 canon of Harper + Cullen Row and Duke Thomas. Immediately after starting this quest, I realized that for my own sanity, I simply MUST write about why Harper Row bothers me. Because I actually LIKE the character, but I HATE the context she appears in.

I’ve read a max of ten issues with Harper, which is why this is titled First Impressions, not Final Judgement. If you don’t agree with me, cool. If you agree with me, also cool.

(Warning: this post is really really long.)

The first time Harper (named) appears is in the Court of Owls arc, saving Batman’s life. She is entirely unfamiliar to the viewers, but Batman knows her and tells her “I told you once already, leave me alone. I meant it.” Her name is dropped by Harper herself who, after Bruce storms off, says:

Ignoring my immediate cringe at “epic bat-fail”, this is a weird introduction. This had me going back to google, convinced that I had the comic order wrong. But no, this is Harper’s first named appearance. For some reason. (In media res is going to kill me one day.)

(She has a cameo in the first New 52 Batman issue, but lord knows she’s not recognizable without hindsight. This is her)

The next time she shows up in Batman #12, we actually confirm her hairstyle changed between her last two appearances via flashback. We also get a proper origin as well as an intro for her brother Cullen.

Two things here: 1) Harper focuses a lot on providing for Cullen, who would instead like his sister to chill out and live a little; and 2) Cullen would like to win the heart of Tim Drake. (+1 canon points for Cullen/Tim, if anyone ships that)

Harper goes to a Wayne gala, stuffs her bag with pastries, and chats with Alfred (who recommends she take some brownies, gosh I really love Alfred). She’s super skeptical about the Wayne development that’s going to replace her current apartment building because she doubts Bruce has even set foot in a neighborhood like hers, let alone knows enough to not screw them all over.

She comes home to find some people broke into her apartment, beat her brother and shaved “FAG” in the back of his hair. Which, wow, fuck his unnamed assailants. Cullen’s hair is pretty much unsalvageable, so Harper cuts her own hair to match in solidarity.

Harper has nerves and a spine of steel. 

We find out that Harper is emancipated from her abusive dad, her mom is dead, and she works as an electrical engineer (she’s not old enough to have the education for that, but comic logic, don’t think about it too hard).

Going home from school, Harper and Cullen run into the guys that messed with Cullen. Harper tasers the fuck out of one, but about a dozen more crawl out of the woodwork. The Row siblings are pretty screwed, but then Batman swoops in and knocks some heads. He leaves, and we get this:

If this were a manga, the artist would have drawn literal stars in Harper’s eyes on that last panel.

She then proceeds to stalk the shit out of Batman, watching what little video the internet has before staring at street cams long enough to notice that Batman is hacking them. Upon realizing this, she tracks down the physical grid mods for the hacks and improves them as a “thank you” to Batman. Of course, she runs into Batman chasing a dude down, almost gets hurt but still helps apprehend the villain. Bruce, bit of a dick that he is, tells her not to do it again and ditches.

Ignoring the weirdness with her in media res introduction during the Court of Owls, I honestly like this origin and I like the potential of Harper as well as Cullen. She reminds a bit of Jason with her more troubled childhood grounding her approach to vigilantism, and there’s a bit of tech-guru and stalker tendencies (lol) that echoes Tim. I get a bit of Stephanie too, though less so than Jason and Tim. She’s also unique in having a younger sibling that she has a solid, loving relationship with even before the Bat-stuff. I hope writers capitalize on the Harper-Cullen dynamic; it’s the strong point of this origin.

After the origin, things get...contentious. Harper next shows up in #18 which I think happens after Damian’s death? And maybe after Dick’s “death?” I’m not quite sure. She confronts Batman who is spiraling, beating on low-level people who don’t really deserve that level of force while also getting injured from stupid mistakes. 

This whole section echoes the time immediately after Jason died a lot, and her thoughts on the matter are pretty close to Tim’s (pre-Flashpoint). Which...isn’t a super good thing because Tim’s “Batman needs a Robin” shtick was a bit tone-deaf while Batman was grieving his youngest son back in 1988-9. In 2012, it was still a bit tone-deaf.

“I have no interest in knowing whoever’s under that mask. I don’t want you to be a person.” Harper, I know you don’t know Batman just lost a kid, but holy hell, you’re echoing the worst Batman tendencies Bruce has, please no.

(Also, while I’m making the Tim parallel, post-Jason’s death it was just Dick and Bruce against the world, with Dick firmly not at home (and Barbara still in recovery from the Joker iirc). Post-Damian (and post-Dick), Tim is still alive. Tim, the guy who’s origin involved pulling Bruce out of his funk the first time, is around for this second crisis of faith. Tim, what are you doing while Bruce is self-destructing here? Off with the Teen Titans and exploiting his New 52 origin as a reason not to be interested, I imagine.)

We then get this response:

Now, I haven’t tracked down Stephanie’s first appearances, but to my untrained eye, this strongly resembles of Bruce’s early and complete disapproval of Spoiler. And since Stephanie is noticeably absent from the New 52 at this point, we have example 1 of what I think is Pre-Flashpoint’s fans’ biggest complaint: Harper Row occupies roles formerly established by Stephanie and/or Cassandra. Because someone at DC (writers or publishing execs, I don’t know) decided to reset the Batgirls rather than port them over with their experiences intact, New 52 introduces Harper first (also Barbara, but that’s a discussion for another day). 

It makes some sense in the narrative to give Harper the same difficulties as Stephanie since Spoiler didn’t exist to pave the path, but Spoiler not yet existing was an arbitrary executive decision unpopular with long-term fans. It’s not weird to think that people who like a female batfam character from pre-Flashpoint - Stephanie, Cassandra or Barbara - are the fans DC should be courting to accept Harper. Giving Harper a parallel to Stephanie without also giving them Stephanie does the opposite - it alienates them and causes them to project their saltiness onto Harper.

Even after Stephanie is introduced, she comes back as Spoiler, losing her hard-won (very hard-won) progress form her days as Robin and Batgirl. Meanwhile Harper and New52-Stephanie become friends, meaning that an older Stephanie fan cannot consume Stephanie or Harper content without seeing the other girl. Thus Steph fans are constantly filled with low-burning rage at DC and probably also Harper for not giving them their preferred version of Steph.

It gets even worse with Cassandra. DC reintroduces her two years after Steph and four years after Harper’s first cameo, so Cass fans have been living in a content desert with no promise of salvation. Like Steph, Cass’s hard-won progress as Batgirl and Black Bat is gone, supplanted by a new origin as Orphan. Cass becomes good friends with Harper and Steph, which on the surface is great for original Cass fans - her pre-Flashpoint friendship with Steph is very important to her character. But now you’ve retconned away Cass as Batgirl playing rooftop tag with Steph. You’ve erased the gravity of Cass giving Steph the Batgirl title. Now Harper is a vital part of a dynamic that can no longer emulate the original.

And Cassandra killed Harper’s mom in her origin. Not randomly either - Batman & Robin Eternal has Mother - the villain of Cass’s origin and the B&R title’s final boss-villain - ordering Cass to kill Harper’s mom to forge Harper into a better minion down the line. Disclaimer: I didn’t read all of this arc - but tying Harper and Cassandra irrevocably to each other’s origins is really bad. To an older Cass fan, it feels manipulative, as if the writers are trying to give Harper some of Cassandra’s clout by making them both important to the same villain. Having entwined origins makes it near impossible to separate out Cass and Harper going forward if you like one but dislike the other.

I therefore conclude as a newer comic reader that there is nothing wrong with Harper Row herself and A LOT wrong with how she was packaged. By herself, Harper is a capable engineer and hacker who utilizes her expertise well and with training could be a capable vigilante. But with New 52 Spoiler and Orphan, she is a constant reminder of how this is not the Pre-Flashpoint Earth. Retconning the Batgirl histories back into existence would be the same as retconning Harper’s character development back out of existence. DC basically shot itself in the foot by resetting Cass and Steph while tying them both to Harper, dividing their original Batgirl fanbase into polarized pro- and anti-reboot groups. 

Which is a pity, because I really think Cass and Steph fans could have found something to like in Harper without the resets.

[wearetakingthehobbitstogallifrey]

Thanks for the tag, @theamiableanachronism!  I really enjoyed this one!

rules: choose any 3 fandoms (in random order) and answer the questions. then tag some friends.

i choose: • Batfam • Scarlet Heart Ryeo • The Walking Dead

the first character you loved:

• Bruce Wayne and Alfred.  My first real intro to the Batfam and DC was Batman Begins, and I thought Bruce Wayne was the coolest, bravest guy ever.  And Alfred was THE BEST.  Kind, fatherly/grandfatherly, loyal, sarcasm lord

• Wang So.  Obviously.  Even before I had actually seen a single episode, because I heard he had a tragic story, and he was also as beautiful as an angel.  A dark, wounded angel, but an angel none the less.  When he stormed onto the scene and revealed himself to totally be a murder angst cupcake, as advertised, well, I was bewitched

• Dear sweet Glenn, who sasses the heck out of Rick while saving his butt.  Yeah, Glenn, the pizza delivery boy who was the bravest, most unselfish of them all.  Who became one of the most trusted leaders.  He could have turned and left Rick to die, no one would have known or cared, but he didn’t.  He helped out a stranger, and saved a heck ton of other people by that simple act.

the character you never expected to love so much:

• All the Robins, honestly.  Look, when I watched the Dark Knight trilogy, all I knew about Robin was from a clip or two I had seen of the old campy Batman show, and I kind of was glad a legit Robin never showed up in the films just because I thought it would be ridiculous.  I was SO wrong.  I had no idea.   I had no idea what dark, tragic, beautiful, light, funny, DEEP stories surrounded the MANY kids who would take up the Robin mantle

• Eun, I guess. I never hated him, but since he was always rather immature, it was easy to laugh at him and make fun of the things he did.  Then things happened, and while he remained naive in many ways, it was rather sweet and sad at the same time.  My dorky son deserved better

•Daryl Dixon.  Starts out seeming like a rough, angry, slightly racist redneck whose one redeeming quality is his concern for his even more messed up brother.  And then I realized how much of a softy he was underneath everything, how much he cared about Sophia, and how it destroyed him what happened to her.  I saw him connect with Carol, and befriend Rick and Glenn, and become Rick’s brother essentially, and be softened by Beth.  And as the seasons go on he becomes more badass, more caring, more indispensible to the group, and he loses the undesirable traits he picked up from his childhood.  We find out what his childhood was.  Daryl with Glenn is Rick’s right-hand man, and HE JUST CARES SO MUCH ABOUT EVERYTHING DON’T EVEN TRY TO DENY IT MAN

*I’m gonna cheat and add another person for TWD: Carl.  In the first season or two he is a little kid, kind of annoying at times, but boy does he grow up and mature.  It’s a terrible tragedy what he goes through, the things he sees and has to do that no kid should ever have to.  But he is so freaking strong, and he respects his dad so much, and I love his friendship with Michonne.  I love his concern for his little sister.  I love how he shoulders responsibility, how he does what he thinks is necessary, how he worries sometimes that he is becoming a monster too.  I FREAKING LOVE HOW HE WILL nOT PUT UP WITH NEGAN HE HAS NO EFFS TO GIVE FOR THE GUY HE IS TOO MAD AND HAS SEEN TOO MUCH

the character you relate to the most:

• Well, I can relate to Jason’s love for books, to Tim’s often more quiet and reserved nature.  However, I definitely relate to Dick Grayson the most.  He is more outgoing than me, more outspoken, but he has such great love for his friends and family.  The care for his little brothers (in canon and fanon) is something that particularly calls my attention.  You see, besides two older siblings, I have four younger brothers, and I have helped raise them, I have fought against them, fought with them, fought for them, laughed with them, and busted with pride over their accomplishments.  I have been the person who tried to organize them, to tease them, to keep the peace, to enforce the peace.  And maybe I am projecting but I just really see a lot of myself in Nightwing.  The man who hopes, the man who tries to bring light to the darkest of places, the man others trust to help them when they fall.  (I also just hold him in the deepest admiration and its a thing, I try to be a better and braver person so that if he were real I would be worthy of his friendship and respect...)

• A little bit Hae Soo, because I also would get increasingly frustrated by the culture at the time.  We also share a deep love with Wang So :)  Seriously though...maybe Baek Ah?  Because he is the quiet and introspective type, he suffers quietly, he listens and hears things and tries to help those who need it, he tries to bring the outcast brother back into the family.  He is a healer of sorts, a healer of the heart, and he loves little kids and everything beautiful.  He sees things.  

• Maybe this is me projecting again but Glenn?  Kinda small and nerdy, scared of a lot of things, but bravely keeps on trucking.  And slowly rises to being one of the most integral parts of the group.  A man who has strong morals and isn’t afraid to punch an ex-military man twice his size if that man gets between him and the people he loves

the character you’d slap:

• I’d say the Joker but honestly he deserves something more like a bullet to the head.  I would totally slap a lot of the writers who don’t know what character development means, and I would slap at least half the Batfam because sometimes they just don’t know how to communicate feelings properly.  And they frequently hurt each other even without meaning to.  After all of this, however, I would pull them all in for individual hugs.  Oh, I will also totally slap anyone who ever so much as tries to give Dick Grayson grief about the awful things that happened in the Blockbuster and Tarantula incident

• Wook.  UGH.  Also his sister and Queen Yoo.  The king, whatshisface.  Taejo?  also the little creep Won.  I would slap Yo but I would be afraid to mess up his eyeliner, which is on point at all times and is too wonderful to destroy

• Andrea.  I am so sorry but I could not stand that woman ever.  I rarely actively dislike a fictional person, and I apologize to fans of the comics, I realize that the show screwed over her character, but I despise Andrea with everything I’ve got.  Mostly because she runs around proclaiming how much better she is than everyone while at the same time making colossal mistakes.  And honestly her end was ridiculous.  If Glenn can take out a walker while beaten up and duct-taped to a chair, you can figure out how to pick up pliers with your feet

three favourite characters (in order of preference):

• Dick Grayson is the love of my life, and then I guess Bruce, Jason, Tim, and Damian are tied for second place, and then directly behind them are Barbara, Cass, and Steph (I need to read more comics and fics about them, and I am sure they will advance to make the second tier even more crowded).  Alfred is in a special category all on his own

• Wang So (love of my life), Bae(k) Ah, and I guess a tie with Hae Soo, Jung, Woo Hee, and Lady Oh

• Glenn is first in my heart now and forever, and Carl, Daryl, Carol, Michonne, Maggie, and Rick all hold second place.  I like a lot of the other characters, but I’m going to give third place to Tara, and she doesn’t have to share with anyone.  She is just that cool (also awkward and adorkable)

a character you liked at first but not anymore:

• I love every single member of the Batfam to with all my heart.  (The ones I am familiar with, don’t know much about Duke and Harper yet.)  To go beyond, to characters in the universe, well I won’t say I ever liked the Joker but I thought he was a really great bad guy, Batman’s ultimate foe, someone who should always be around throwing wrenches into things and whatnot.  This was after I had seen him in the The Dark Knight.  Then I started actually reading comics related things and HE KILLED JASON TODD.  MY SON.  NOW I DON’T CARE I WANT THE JOKER DEAD I WANT HIM DESTROYED, OBLITERATED, AND NEVER LOOKED BACK ON. 

• Wook. I thought he was occasionally sweet, if not exactly the strongest of persons.  And then I met his wife, who deserved SO MUCH BETTER.  And then Wook revealed himself to be a jealous little eggshell

• SHANE.  He’s kind of like The Walking Dead’s version of Scarlet Heart Ryeo’s Wook.  Originally a decent guy, a good friend, but when things go south, he gets selfish and self-centered and bad things happen.

a character you did not like at first but now do:

• No one really?  I think?  Unless you want to bring the show Gotham into this picture...which I don’t, because that would also make me want to write a book about my love for it and certain of its characters

• can’t think of anyone this applies to

• Hmm, I guess Herschel? He was kind of annoying with his whole “let’s round up walkers and take care of them in my barn.”  Then tragedy and a near death experience and eventually he winds up being the cool old grandpa

3 otp’s (in order of preference):

• I actually don’t have a strong preference as of yet...I kind of like BatCat, Bruce Wayne and Selina Kyle.  I haven’t experienced much media with either pairing yet so I have read and enjoyed both DickBabs (I still say it should be Dabs) and DickKori.  Ooh I like Tim/Steph (is there a ship name for that?).  I ship Jason with happiness.  Actually I ship the whole Batfam with happiness and peace and a good night’s sleep.  I don’t ship Damian with anyone because he is just a bby birb :)

• SoSoo, Baek Ah x Woo Hee, Eun and Soon Duk (Deok?).  Also, So x Happiness/Peace/A Living Family Who Loves Him

• GLENN AND MAGGIE FOREVER.  TO INFINITY AND BEYOND.  Richonne is great and I definitely like Caryl.  (I shipped Bethyl just a little, once upon a dream.)

this was fun :) if any of y’all want to do this @itspileofgoodthings @thelonelybrilliance @nalavistahlia @blackaquokat @castieltaking-hobbits2gallifrey @camsthisky @abadpoetwithdreams @tabbyofwisdom ...I feel like there are other people I want to tag but it is way late (early) and my brain is dead forgive me if I left you out and please consider yourself tagged!